Cette panne est connue aux US
: cela commence en général par un cliquetis moteur. Tout est expliqué dans ce post américain par cet ingénieur très expérimenté qui est le boss d'une boîte de pièces moteur (ils développent eux-mêmes des pièces moteur en particulier pour les vTwin Harley, Victory, Indian etc : https://www.amsmotomachine.com/ ) .
Un peu long pour que je le traduise. Plusieurs cas ont été observés à environ 10000 km avec un bruit de cliquetis au début puis qui a disparu suite au ressort de la soupape cassé...
Il précise que ce cliquetis n'est pas systématiquement lié à ce type de problème mais simplement dû à un bruit de moteur sans aucune incidence.
Il explique comment déterminer si ce bruit concerne ce problème ou si c'est normal.
Il subodore que si Polaris n'a pas fait de rappel c'est qu'ils ont estimé que le coût n'en vaut pas la chandelle, préférant ainsi que le problème soit réglé au fur et à mesure du renouvellement de la gamme !Dans un autre post (que je copie au bas de ce msg), il explique que contrairement aux Harley, un point négatif pour les 111ci Indian, c'est qu'il faut démonter pratiquement tout le moteur pour accéder à la pompe à huile (?!).
Sa conclusion concernant plusieurs de leurs clients qui lui demandent quelle marque de vTwin il leur conseillerait est consternante : il écrit que tant que Polaris n'aura pas résolu ce problème de cliquetis, il ne conseillera jamais la marque Indian.
Personnellement je vais remonter ce post auprès de mon concessionnaire...SON POST DE DECEMBRE 2016
as I've stated many times in different threads here, in my opinion & from experience, there are several different "clacks" with different causes, that may plague some 111 engines. Its clear that many are simply combustion / detonation issues that A/F & ign tuning can eliminate. Other 111's Ive heard clacking are definitely piston slap.Still others "clack" from cam drive / valve train tolerance stack. We had recently had a set of heads from a '14 that began "clacking" after about 7k miles. at 29kmiles, the clacking stopped - because it finally broke an intake valve spring. From examining the other springs and valve retainers, it appears the clack was caused by a couple of weak valve springs
(we measure the springs on our RIMAC spring tester; at max valve lift, the psi from spring to spring varied by ~24% ), and all were out-of-square (the ends were not ground square to the acoil axis. they leaned about 0.084"; like the leaning tower of Pisa. For most valve springs the limit is 0.062", but we I prefer less than 0.025"; and even less for very high rev engines). Furthermore, the fit between the spring coil ID and the retainer was ~0.023" ...which will allow the springs to "dance & click)" rather than keep the spring centered with the valve stem & guide.
The "leaning, out of square condition would aggravate this problem even further. After inspecting the springs and the retainers, it's clear the springs were originally defective when manufactured
, and the retainers' locating shoulder diameter mic'd over a wide range, indicating tolerance stack and poor QC. The one thing we did not inspect, and now wish we had, was the location of the bottom of the springs, and installed spring height
before we replaced the seat ring, guides, and did a valve job to repair the head. As part of our assembly process, we check, among many things, the springs' psi & squareness, the final installed spring height, retainer / lower locator fit, and seating psi. This is the 2nd 111 we seen come thru our shop since June 2014 with a broken spring. It is however, possible for limited batches of bikes to have weak springs, or ill fitting spring retainers to run quite a lot of miles while happy clicking along
despite the above, I think the majority of "Clackers" are caused by excessive piston "rock-over clearance (aka slap) due to the differing expansion RATES between the nikasil jugs and the pistons,at certain rpm/load/throttle position/ambient operating temps.
We hope to run the following experiment on a clacker in Feb, if time permits: Remove the head, jugs and pistons . Completely disassemble, inspect the rockers, and rebuild the heads with a multi-angle valve job, CNC porting, and other things to ensure the source of the noise is not in the top end. Mount the jugs in torque plates to simulate assembled engine clamping loads and distortion, bore them oversize and press in a ductile cast iron sleeve liner, using both an interference fit and bonding compound to promote heat transfer. Then bore and diamond hone the liner so the piston has 0.0008" clearance. Ideally, I'd like to run a parallel test by installing a set of custom pistons, made with a +0.006 add'l wrist pin offset, and installed in a set of "as-is" stock nikasil jugs. This may have to wait until May, as AMS has just purchased a new, larger building and will be moving our larger Ft Worth machine shop & parts warehouse during Jan - Marc. We'll still be operating the smaller machine shop at full capacity, but with our regular work load, they may not be much time to experiment until after the move.Meanwhile, here are some helpful tips one can use to diagnose valve train (VT) noises:
If the VT noise seems to be coming from the top end, remove the rocker arm covers , wrap a few rags around the general area to catch some oil splash, and run the engine with the covers removed.
( it'll be a little messy, but not as bad as most folks think. The engine can be run for 3~5 minutes like this without making a huge mess, or risking damage . Use a mechanic's stethoscope to determine which valves or VT parts are transmitting the noise. Additionally, I will "test" each valve's train by placing my thumb on the rocker arm, at the pushrod end, and push hard on it while the engine is running. This will usually dampen any noise that this particular valve's train of parts may be creating. If the noise continues unabated, then its either a very serious. loose part in the VT , or more likely, the noise is not related to the VT.
Common causes of VT noise are most likely to be:
Weak valve springs or broken valve spring; Sticking valve stem / guides; Flexing or even bent push rods; Cam lobes with too high lobe intensity, or defective camshaft lobes (including tthe compression release mechanism); Contaminated, stuck, or worn valve lifters; Poor oil supply to the lifter and other VT parts (low oil pressure, or too high oil level causing oil foaming ); Excessive valve stem to guide clearance / worn valve guides, defective or worn pushrod tips, rocker arms, and loose rocker arm attachment; tolerance stack causing too much clearance between lifter and case's lifter bore; Incorrectly positioned roller lifter guide; cam timing chain slap, worn chain tensioner/guide; Defective or jammed cam scissor gear.
If the above test with stethescope and thumb dampening indicate it's a noisy lifter, and the noise is usually intermittent at idle, & disappears when engine speed increases, then the possible causes are: dirt in the lifter, damaged lifter check ball.
If the lifters noisy at mid to high rpm, but quiet at low speeds, then suspect high engine oil level (an oil level while running that allows the crankshaft counterweights, or the balance shaft to churn the engine oil into foam. When foam is pumped into the valve lifters, the valve lifters become noisy). Note a high operating oil level can be caused by over filling the crankcase, or a weak scavenger side of the oil pump causing "sumping"; OR too. low engine oil level, which will also allow the oil pump to pump aerated oil at higher rpms.; A loose or out-of-place oil sump pick up tube (allows the oil pump to suck air & oil).
If noisy at idle, becoming louder as engine speed increases to ~2500 to 2800 RPM, the noise is not likely a lifter, The noise becomes loudest at ~2800 rpm while just cruising along with no accel or decel load on the motor. & described as a "ticking" sound. At dle, the sound may be entirely gone or appear as a light ticking noise in one more valves. This noise is caused by one or more of the following: a scuffed valve tip and rocker arm pad; or excessive valve stem-to-guide clearance due to tolerance stack or wear; excessive valve seat run-out, off-square valve spring, excessive valve face run-out. (note all are likely due to tolerance stack / poor QC); or its piston slap; a cracked piston skirt or collapsed piston skirt kam-form (usually due to detonation/pining).
Sometimes a off-sq valve spring can be can be diagnosed by rotating the engine so that particular valve just begins to open. Then using either your fingers or a rubber-lined channel lock pliers, turn the spring 45°, Make sure not to scratch dent, nick or mar the spring in any manner with the pliers. Crank up the engine and listen - repeat until the noise goes quiet, or you've turned the spring full circle. If the goes away or gets quieter, then install new springs.btained, check for an off-square valve spring.
If the lifter noise gets louder as engine rpm increases, whether on a hot or cold engine, then look for worn or chipped pushrod tips, or a flexed / bent pushrod; a damaged rocker arm; or piston slap, excess wrist pin clearance (due to tolerance stack or detonation/pinging)
Whatever is causing the infamous clacking, it is causing Indain/Polaris repeat buyers. I know at least a dozen Indian owners who will not buy another Indian because of this issue, and at least 8 more who dumped their clacking Indians and bought either a new HD or other brand. In my position as a pro engine machinist / builder I get many inquiries every week asking me to recommend a bike brand/model - Indian is not on my list, and never will be until this engine noise issue is resolved.
SON POST DE JUILLET 2016
I helped a friend diagnose the cause of his 2015 Indians loud "Clack". Here's the rundown:
The engine has a semi-dry sump, with most of the oil at the rear, in a baffled chamber. A small amount of "drain back oil resides forward of this area, in the shared crank and trans area. (This is why the 111 has two drain plugs. The pump is located at the very rear, inside the trans/crankcase. It is driven by a plastic gear off of the clutch hub on the left side of the engine. Unlike a Harley which is a full-dry sump, with an easily accessed oil pump, the 111's oil pump can only be accessed by removing the engine from the frame, removing the heads and jugs, all side covers, and splitting the cases - practically a complete disassemble of the engine. ( there's a reason I'm pointing this out, which I'll come back to later) The pump is actually two gerotor pumps. One set of its gerotors scavenges oil from the crank & tranny side, returning it to the baffled sump area at the rear. The other set of gerotors is the pressure side of the pump that supplied oil under pressure to the engine bearings, bushings & lifters, etc. The pump has a pick-up tube ( the oil inlet from the sump area) that is near the bottom rear of the case. And there is an oil tube (called a snorkel tube in the IMC factory manual) which extends nearly to the TOP of the transmission case. The scavenger side of the pump is the suspected problem.
First, here's why I mentioned the difficulty of accessing the 111's oil pump: From our recent tests, I think some of the "Clacker" engines have defective or poor performing scavenger gerotors in their oil pumps.
Inefficient scavenging causes oil "sumping"; where the oil level inside the crankcase area is too high because the scavenger pump is not performing as well as it should. This slightly higher oil level causes a loud mechanical-like "Clack" or knock when a counterbalance weight on either the crank or the balance shaft hits the surface of the oil in the crankcase. Harley engines ocassionally suffer a similar "oil sumping" problem - they make a helluva clatter. When it occurs, the HD tech can simply remove the cam chest cover, realign the oil pump and/or put in new orings, and button it back up. Takes about 45 mins.
With our 111's, we're talking major engine overhaul, and a new pump...so the factory has a HUGE incentive not to want to acknowledge the problem. And here's the kicker: Unless the scavenger side of the pump fails completely, the oil level will only "sump" too high at certain rpm/ temp/load ranges .... some engines more than others, and it will not significantly "hurt" the engine ( it does lower HP/TQ output slightly & effect mpg, and will eventually effect engine longevity - but by then it'll many thousands of miles out of warranty, so again, the factory has no incentive to recognize "Clacking" as a problem). Also, if a tech disassembles the engine, looking for the cause of the noise, there is a 99.9% chance he will not find it - because there is not oil in the engine when he's got apart (duh
; and there will be no signs or marks on the counterweights from slapping the oil's surface; and 99.99% of all techs NEVER inspect the oil pump's gerotors to the degree of finding, say, a 5 to 10% loss of efficiency. AND because the output or pressure side of the pump develops much more psi than the engine bearings require, there is no immediate danger of ruining the engine, even if this side of the pump is a little loose.
The reason some 111's clack and some do not, or why some clack louder than others depends on the oil level in the crank side of the case WHILE the engine is RUNNING. This oil level depends on the efficiency of the scavenger side of the oil pump (which is determined by factory manufacturing tolerance stack), the oil temp/viscosity, the engine RPMs ( which determines how fast the output side of pump "fills" the crankcase with oil).
Here's how we diagnose this condition as it related to "Clacking":
1. We verified the oil level was correct on the dipstick.
2. Then ran the engine and determined the rpms and oil temp where the clacking was loudest.
3. Removed the plug that drains the crank area of the case and installed a brass cut-off valve, hose barb, and about 12" of soft clear 1/2"hose with a plug at the other.
4. With the valve off, we refilled/ran the engine to verify once again, the oil level on the stick was correct.
5. Ran the engine at the previous rpms, and up to temp until it began to clack as before.
6. While it clacked, we opened the valve an let the oil in the crank area drain into the tube - the clacking quit almost immediately when the oil level in the crank area dropped. the noise went away for about 4 minutes, or until the level rose again.
7. We then turned the valve off, and drained the oil from the tube.
8. With the valve still off, we added the oil from the tube back into the crank case. The fast idled the engine a minute and again verified the oil level on the stick was correct.
9. Once again, we ran the engine at the previous rpms, and up to temp until it began to clack as before.
While it clacked, we opened the valve an let the oil in the crank area drain into the tube - again, the clacking quit almost immediately. as soon as it did, we rolled/squeezed the tube to force the oil back into the case, which made the oil level rise again, - and the Clacking immediately resumed.
So we're sure the noise is due to oil sumping / crank or balance shaft hitting the oil surface.
However, one should keep this in mind: IMHO and from my experience, there at least 3 different abnormal noises often described as "Clacking" by some 111 owners. I know some of the early "easy-start cams" made a "lifter-like rattle". I also know that a clacking noise is caused by a sticking timing chain tensioner. And I also strongly believe the worst "clackers" are cause by the oil sumping condition described above. And some times pinging (detonation) will be called Clacking by some folks.